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When the evil Slade attacks, those Titan kids don't cut him no slack!
This episode is all about:
What the #@%! was Slade’s plan?!
Why is Robin such a DICK?!
Battered spouses
Once a hyper-competent, homicidal sociopath
Cyborg’s magic
Wanking off to anime
Episodes that were rape-tastic!
The Tyler Durden Episode
The weakest heelturn EVER!
People who defend Chris Benoit
And finally, we ask the question: Was Sam Register snorting coke off of the backs of Ami and Yumi?
Dear Cartoon Network... Stop designing characters like this! STOP IT!!!
Isn't Robin wonderful? Don't you love it how he abuses us? Let's dress up like him!
Now, I don’t mean to brag or anything, but this is kind of how the show went:
Don't worry, Cyborg. Soon, you'll be in a much better cartoon.
This version of “Friday” is better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTBdrJHXvEo
I could have also used this one.
I already listened to it and I just I can’t listen again. :C
There is no defending Teen Titans it’s the bane of Superhero cartoons. I don’t want your weebo crap on western characters. Teen Titans is unapologetically, mind numbingly dumb with powers and character development used once and thrown out the next show like human waste. It was 65 episodes of eye stabbing fun.
Legion of Superheroes though a bit bland showed how you are supposed to handle a series geared towards kids.
It’s funny that you say all that, Kevin, because Fes was just assuring me this afternoon that nobody would see it our way. Funny that.
The problem with Teen Titans’ reliance on anime is twofold.
1. It has no character of its own. it’s all aping someone else’s expressive style. I’m big into expressionism, and I hate it when someone just throws in giant sweat drops and all that crap that manga artists do when they’re being LAZY!
2. Teen Titans is for people who haven’t yet figured out that anime hasn’t been mainstream cool since the days that Haruhiko Mikimoto and Kenichi Sonoda.
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Just… wow.
I can understand the whole fun factor thing, but that could be said for a lot of old TV shows that I would never look at again. It’s just a hollow thing without any soul of its own. It’s entertaining when you’re in full thrall of foreign culture worship, but not much after the fact. And to sit there and say that it is above reproach and shouldn’t be criticized for its technical faults and shortcomings is laughable.
Oh, and the whole “kids show” mentality is best suited to stuff off PBS designed for that. Being more forgiving of bad writing, characters, and situations doesn’t make one more understanding toward the show. It makes you the pushover the show’s more lazy stewards wanted you to be. This is a show full of abject criticism without emotional bias to shield those easily swayed, not a hugbox full of people deluding themselves. You’ve said stuff I don’t agree with(serious sonic worse than silly sonic, what?) but I understand your position.
Your guest seemed less like a receptive person, and more like a brick wall blanketing himself in nostalgia and excuses to love something that really is a stilted product of its time. I used to like Extreme Dinosaurs, but even then I realized no one could ever defend it from saying it sucked horse turds competently.
This is by far the best comment I’ve seen yet. I can respect someone that disagrees with me that has honesty. Most people I know that love Teen Titans knows it’s basically ‘fluff’ and would never defend it past “It’s mindless”.
Some, however, like Fes, called it equal to JLU, which to me is just offensive. I’ve debated with Titans fans for many years and they love to band together to lie, cheat, steal to win arguments. Pure, unadulterated honesty is their kryptonite.
Real animation gurus like Bruce Timm, Brad Bird, Matt Groening go out of their way to create their own animation identities. Teen Titans was about aping off someone else’s identity, but without the charm of being ironic or intentionally over the top like Megas XLR was.
“Well, it’s a children’s show” is one of the worst shields someone can use to defend crap quality. Brad Bird is right on why no one should say this, and for people that don’t understand why, go listen to the commentary track of The Incredibles.
I would appreciate you not put words into my mouth.
Yes, it’s a children’s show, and there are many tropes, memes, and other typical things that happen with that category of cartoon. Still, many people loved this show, and I’ve been seeing a lot of support to my “side” of this “debate”.
I will reiterate what I lastly said on the show:
In spite of its failings, the show is still fun and awesome. Forget the haters. I enjoyed it very much.
“Yes, it’s a children’s show, and…
…and there are undoubtedly lots of good childrens shows. But that’s not really what we were talking about, was it? I don’t recall our objective being to categorize and dismiss Teen Titans as a kid’s show.
I’ve also been seeing you say, “They failed to convince me.” That’s not what our objective was, either.
“I’ve been seeing a lot of support to my ‘side’ of this ‘debate’.”
Fes. Seriously. Why the fuck were you on the show? You keep putting “debate” in quotes, as if to take take issue with the notion that you were responsible for defending the very merits of the show that we were attacking, even though that’s exactly what you agreed to do.
You can tell us that you have many supporters for your side, but seeing as you keep skewing “your side” to something that we weren’t even arguing, that really doesn’t mean anything.
This was a debate about the quality of the show, which you never once defended. You spent the entire show making excuses for the show’s shortcomings and finding ways to use popularity as a means to dismiss our arguments. You STARTED the show with an argument from popularity, and I called you out on it. For some reason, you’re still doing it now.
“In spite of its failings, the show is still fun and awesome. Forget the haters.”
The argument you used could be applied to ANYTHING. You could use the same argument to defend Dominic Deegan. It’s easy to just dismiss criticisms of the style and content when you can just say that it’s awesome and characterize critics as “haters”.
Your dismissal of us as “haters” has really gotten on my nerves.
let me give you an example:
Let’s say you go to a restaurant and the silvewear was dirty. You order a medium steak and it comes back blue. And then you wit 20 minutes for your ticket. You have a problem with it and talk to the manager. His response “Well, on this side of town, the silverwear is always dirty.” and “Blue steak tastes better than medium.” and “20 minutes waiting isn’t that unusual”.
The manager just ‘explained away’ three crucial flaws with that dinner. Does that dinner deserve 5 stars now all of a sudden?
The point is, nowhere did you use an argument about the show’s actual merits other than it ‘played to tropes, thus was allowed to be’ whatever. By continually appealing to popularity and screaming about ‘haters’, you are attempting what we call in legal land ‘Jury Nullification’. And, from reading the comments, you didn’t nullify this jury.
Fes, I gotta step in here. It is fun and enjoyable to some people (like you and me) it is annoying to others (like Ben and Neil) but the things they stated for it being “a bad show” are true.
It could have been executed WAY better than it was, like with the Terra situation. Like they said, “worst traitor story” is pretty much accurate.
Neil and Ben can hate Teen Titans, but that won`t make it a better or worse show. All we do by liking it or disliking it is a POPULAR show.
There´s many stuff on TV and the Cinemas that are way better executed yet get no following at all, while other stuff, not as brilliantly done, that get a huge following almost for no reason.
I don`t think Teen Titans is what I would call “a bad show”, but it definitely isn`t FLAWLESS, it has many, they were pointed out one by one. It´s ok if WE don`t care about the problems it has and just enjoy the ride. We WIN if we watch the show and enjoy it! We´d LOOSE if we sat down through all of it and hated every minute of it!
We´d loose our time, we´d feel dissappointed, we´d be bored to tears. Angered.
Neil and Ben got certain expectations of the show, coming from different places, they didn´t get what they wanted, they didn´t enjoy it. They gave their reasons for disliking it, it wasn`t just “I don`t like this show cuz it`s made of FAIL”, they went with “I never fell for the characterization, didnt feel the animation was up for this” etc.
They HATE the show because of that and they hate the blind following the series has (same way as I´m not fond of organized religions…) you probably felt you could change their minds, but you couldn´t. They probably felt the same about you, but they couldn`t either. What they did accomplish was for you to admit the show`s shortcomings. Going, “F— this, this show is awesome because people like it” it´s NOT the best defense one can use.
I disagree with many things that popped up during the show (like the whole tween rate thing…seriously guys, that´s just like saying a comic book is good or bad based on how many panels it has) but I feel the defense for these shows should come from other places other than just how much one likes the show, because most of that is relative, and when it comes to “trials” that doesn`t hold water.
I hope if someone else decides to show up for these “listeners strike back” podcasts, they listen to the one with The Batman and Teen Titans first to see what they`re coming up against. I did a small “The Batman” defense you can listen as part of the other episode extras, I went with all the pros and cons I could find.
Take care!
I have this huge, long 2 page response typed up that I’m too afraid to post lol. I might just make a video response. The essence of my rant is this:
Good enough is never enough, especially when you’re surrounded by the best. What’s the point of spending MILLIONS of dollars on a mediocre product? If Teen Titans just “did it’s job” then it’s not a good show. It’s not a bad one, but it’s not a good one either.
When people imply that Teen Titans’s populary is a result of it’s “quality”, I have to counter with this: one never goes broke underestimating the publics taste. When you go out of your way to appeal to the base desires of a target audience, you’re going to be popular until that audience wises up. This show was aimed at kids 6-14. Kids in that age range tend to have shorter attention spans, they like lots of action, and will probably watch anything super hero related. But it’s just LAZY to stop there. Laziness is at the core of everything that is wrong with Teen Titans. It’s not “bad” but it could be so much better.
I might be contradicting myself here but I think Teen Titans is enjoyable if you accept it for what it is. I can’t hold this show up to the light of JLU then tear it down for not being as good as JLU. I refuse to believe that Teen Titans was supposed to be on the same level as that show, so I don’t complain when it doesn’t measure up.
I like Teen Titans, but it’s impossible not to see that the show has serious flaws.
We welcome any response, video or otherwise, to this episode. The fact that this episode is so polarizing, yet everyone in the comments can agree to the fact that the flaws Neil and I pointed out are very real is quite a great feeling. What I always wanted was a dialogue. What we have here is some of the best open dialogue we’ve had.
I would never defend this show, I liked it but know it’s flaws too well to try. To me, it was a good distraction from all the other crappy shows CN had going on. I’m rather impressed, other then a few hiccups you guys rationally made very good points on why this show shouldn’t be praised as it should. I was confused when it first came out as to why the animation was so eastern. It didn’t turn me off, but felt out of place.
First time I noticed crap for crap was Fox’s X-men, loved it, but wouldn’t watch it all again, only bits and pieces.
I’m always late to the party…
@Ben The Host: And the 2012 award most convoluted straw man argument goes to…
Listen. I can defend it as a kid’s show the same way I can defend rap. You say it sucks because, hold on…. its unoriginal, badly written and has no character development? No kidding. How many adult shows can I list that would fit under this category? Including shows that won awards?
ITS NOT FOR YOU. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS JUDGING THE SHOW IF YOU’RE NOT THE INTENDED AUDIENCE! It was directly made to appeal to young kids, which, as mentioned, want fast action and comedy, otherwise they will get bored. Quality was never the intention. You want The Sopranos of cartoon shows, go write one. The show did suffer from serious lag in writing, yet it did achieve some success. Notice how half of all the villains were never very serious. They don’t appear to have any set laws of physics (other than gravity) for their universe, no law of conservation. Or any sort of rules for that matter. Maybe they deserve slack here because comics and superhero stories in general are notorious for this.
Lets talk about the fact that adults are judging and hashing about a kid’s cartoon. This is sick. Teen titans was a show I watched back in the day, when I was maybe 13-14. and I started to get back into it recently after a serious bout of procrastination. I’ll won’t talk or acknowledge it outside of the confines of the internet nor will I crank up the volume of Gangstarr, Grandsmaster Flash, SQR1, Wu Tang and others while I’m driving in my car. They’re guilty pleasures. I know better. You don’t. You better learn.
The Terra plot, I don’t know what to say about it. Yeah it did kind of suck, but the appeal was more of the emotions it (was supposed) to wring up rather than a deep storyline with a plausible suspension of disbelief. (I’ve yet to see one in comics). What exactly makes for a good betrayal story anyway?
I’ll address your points one by one becuase I’m bored and this will be easy:
And the 2012 award most convoluted straw man argument goes to…
As defined, a strawman is ‘a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.’. Nowhere did I misrepresent the argument of Teen Titans fans. How do I know this? I had two of them on this episode and they GAVE their arguments, which I responded to, DIRECTLY.
ITS NOT FOR YOU. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS JUDGING THE SHOW IF YOU’RE NOT THE INTENDED AUDIENCE!
Do you know who Brad Bird is? No? Look up his credits list. Then rent Iron Giant, and listen to the commentary and listen to when Brad Bird says he HATES the label “Children’s cartoon”. My best friend once said to me “If you talk to children like babies, you raise stupid children”. I feel the same way about cartoons. If you show children cartoons meant to be stupid, you raise stupid children. Children deserve quality ANYTHING, including animation. I refuse to believe that we should knock it down because of that. Besides the fact, most Teen Titans fanboys I did battle with in the past are in the 25-35 age range. So I refuse to believe that.
It was directly made to appeal to young kids, which, as mentioned, want fast action and comedy, otherwise they will get bored. Quality was never the intention. You want The Sopranos of cartoon shows, go write one. The show did suffer from serious lag in writing, yet it did achieve some success. Notice how half of all the villains were never very serious. They don’t appear to have any set laws of physics (other than gravity) for their universe, no law of conservation. Or any sort of rules for that matter.
So “Because the show is bad I cannot say the show is bad”? Really?
Maybe they deserve slack here because comics and superhero stories in general are notorious for this.
Only the bad ones. The good ones get praise and accolades.
Lets talk about the fact that adults are judging and hashing about a kid’s cartoon. This is sick. Teen titans was a show I watched back in the day, when I was maybe 13-14. and I started to get back into it recently after a serious bout of procrastination. I’ll won’t talk or acknowledge it outside of the confines of the internet nor will I crank up the volume of Gangstarr, Grandsmaster Flash, SQR1, Wu Tang and others while I’m driving in my car. They’re guilty pleasures. I know better. You don’t. You better learn.
Or what?
The Terra plot, I don’t know what to say about it. Yeah it did kind of suck, but the appeal was more of the emotions it (was supposed) to wring up rather than a deep storyline with a plausible suspension of disbelief. (I’ve yet to see one in comics). What exactly makes for a good betrayal story anyway?
Ok, here we go. The award for worst strawman goes to YOU!
You constantly use “Comics have bad stories” as a strawman to validate that Teen Titans is allowed to be bad.
“ITS NOT FOR YOU. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS JUDGING THE SHOW IF YOU’RE NOT THE INTENDED AUDIENCE!”
This podcast is intended for adults. Your use of the caps lock key informs me that you are a child. You have no business critiquing this podcast, since you aren’t the intended audience.
Wow, that was hard. Maybe next time, you’ll learn not to use elitist arguments.
Also…
Have you heard of talk show Hannity and Colmes? Are you aware of the criticism leveled against Fox News? Basically it boils down to they misrepresent the liberal side with having a terrible representative who can’t argue his way out of a paper bag. The Teen Titan fan base has more than 2 people. If you really want a good representation of the arguments for Teen Titans you better have a larger pool. At least you have a comments section
If you want me to take your vendetta against “children’s cartoons” as a serious argument then you should have presented it as your main argument. You make yourself untouchable by dismissing an entire genre leaving me with having to argue for both the merits of the genre and the show itself, which is unfair. The point I was trying to make is its only valid to judge art on its intention as an art form and as a form of communication. Lets not turn this into a reductionist argument saying you can only judge wanking off in the context of wanking off. If you have a problem with that form you should have stated such and built your main argument around it otherwise its just a cop-out. Having 25-35 year old fans doesn’t mean jack shit. I’m sure a few just watched the show as wanking off material. I refuse to defend those people.
But for the record: Look at all the best stories in the world. They involve real people and real situation that make us reflect on our own experiences, identity, lives, etc which comment on the human condition. Children can’t really appreciate that not because they’re stupid, because they just don’t have enough life experience to truly enjoy it. There is a deep understanding of this with animators and you can see a difference in the attitude and environments of their works. If you ask do I think children can’t truly appreciate a good war story the answer is yes. I am making that argument.
“You make yourself untouchable by dismissing an entire genre leaving me with having to argue for both the merits of the genre and the show itself, which is unfair.”
Shit is not a genre. Oh wait, you meant kids cartoons, but that’s not a genre, either. Even so, I don’t hate cartoons that are aimed at kids. I hate cartoons that have shitty plots and that condescend to children.
On the show, which you apparently didn’t even listen to, I made a point about how Batman TAS was also aimed at the same demographic that Teen Titans was, and yet it was a much more respectful show to the intelligence of children.
We did two shows on children’s entertainment. You should listen to them before you go telling me what my position is on children’s programming.
Of course, you admitted that you didn’t even listen to THIS show, so who the fuck are you to tell me what’s fair?
Oh goodie, I get to tear it apart again!
Have you heard of talk show Hannity and Colmes? Are you aware of the criticism leveled against Fox News? Basically it boils down to they misrepresent the liberal side with having a terrible representative who can’t argue his way out of a paper bag. The Teen Titan fan base has more than 2 people. If you really want a good representation of the arguments for Teen Titans you better have a larger pool. At least you have a comments section
Fesworks volunteered to defend Teen Titans. He wanted to do it solo, but I INSISTED he get a second so it wasn’t an instance of ‘2 on 1’. He had 4 weeks to prepare. He could have gotten anyone. He made several impassioned pleas on twitter for finding his ‘second’. I was accused of using Fes as a ‘plant’ before, but I can assure you, you can contact Fesworks and verify he is indeed a Teen Titans fan.
We had two on our side, two on Teen Titans’ side. What more do you want?
If you want me to take your vendetta against “children’s cartoons” as a serious argument then you should have presented it as your main argument.
Wha-huh? The show is called “Defending Teen Titans”, not “Why the label “Children’s Cartoon” is harmful to the genre”.
You make yourself untouchable by dismissing an entire genre leaving me with having to argue for both the merits of the genre and the show itself, which is unfair. The point I was trying to make is its only valid to judge art on its intention as an art form and as a form of communication.
Let’s say I make a movie that is absolutely the worst movie ever, with bad effects, plotholes, and shitty special effects. I then finish the movie and come out saying “This was meant to be only seen under an acid trip, thus you cannot judge it at all!”. So no, it’s not ME dismissing a genre, it’s YOU. By saying children do not deserve to watch shows that are written competently, have good production values, or forethought put behind it.
Lets not turn this into a reductionist argument saying you can only judge wanking off in the context of wanking off. If you have a problem with that form you should have stated such and built your main argument around it otherwise its just a cop-out. Having 25-35 year old fans doesn’t mean jack shit. I’m sure a few just watched the show as wanking off material. I refuse to defend those people.
Look in the mirror, you are ‘those people’.
But for the record: Look at all the best stories in the world. They involve real people and real situation that make us reflect on our own experiences, identity, lives, etc which comment on the human condition. Children can’t really appreciate that not because they’re stupid, because they just don’t have enough life experience to truly enjoy it. There is a deep understanding of this with animators and you can see a difference in the attitude and environments of their works. If you ask do I think children can’t truly appreciate a good war story the answer is yes. I am making that argument.
Then you lack the understanding of a storyteller. A well put together story has basic elements that can appeal to the young, spirit and power that appeals to the old….
Avatar: The Last Airbender had triple Teen Titans’ audience numbers(in the same demographics to boot!). So I think numbers prove my argument.
OK, I wish I had listened to the clip before I commented, and I agree with almost everything mentioned, except:
Robin showing inconsistent strength and hitting power: spaghettification of the rules of physics is all I can say. This show is pretty bad in this sense but again Teen Titans isn’t alone here. Cyborg’s equally inconsistent and inexplicable MacGuyver-ing abilities could also fall under this category.
Robin as a douche to the other members: I don’t see this at all and he didn’t really elaborate on this point. So I don’t have anything I can debate here other than a matter of opinion. But in his defense: These are a group of people regularly engaging in intense combat in lethal situations. Now I think Slade’s death was the only real death on the series it stands that they are engaging in some extremely stressful situations. Human psychology dictates you need an extremely strong, robust, dominating and unforgiving leader, much like what is depicted in war movies. As far as his unhealthy obsession with catching bad guys at the expense of his friends is meant to be portrayed as a character flaw. But they stick through it. But at some level, they must love the action, and love the chase because how else would they manage such a lifestyle.
I will admit Starfire was such a badly exploited and under-used character. To the point of being a mentally handicapped child with deadly powers.
Aesthetically I can’t comment as I don’t really care. But again, yeah, its pretty bad.
OK, I wish I had listened to the clip before I commented, and I agree with almost everything mentioned, except:
Let me ask you something: You made a long tirade attacking me and Neil for how we conducted our show… before listening to the show. So you made a ‘type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.’ Correct? So your entire first post was in essence a strawman, correct?
Let me ask you why Neil and I should take anything you say seriously now? You had a misrepresented idea of our stance, attacked it with such hatred and fervor that we rarely see, and then deflate yourself after listening to the episode, cherrypicking specific arguments now.
I’m sorry to say you stepped off on the wrong foot, and you won’t get far doing that sort of thing.
Okay, since you want to be a whiny ass, let’s take apart your snotty post point-by-point.
–
“Listen.”
Took only one word to start condescending to us. You, sir, are a champion.
–
“I can defend it as a kid’s show the same way I can defend rap. You say it sucks because, hold on…. its unoriginal, badly written and has no character development? No kidding. How many adult shows can I list that would fit under this category? Including shows that won awards?”
You’re right, but this isn’t about those shows. This is about Teen Titans. We’re not saying that there aren’t plenty of adult shows that make the same mistake. Hell, we’ve attacked a few, but you apparently didn’t listen to those shows.
–
“ITS NOT FOR YOU. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS JUDGING THE SHOW IF YOU’RE NOT THE INTENDED AUDIENCE!”
Oh, I guess I have to a be a six-year-old before I can critique this show.
Congratulations. You’ve just defended the Star Wars prequels.
*slow clap*
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“It was directly made to appeal to young kids, which, as mentioned, want fast action and comedy, otherwise they will get bored.”
Yeah, just like kids got bored watching Batman TAS, right?
Basically, what you’re saying is that kids are stupid, and therefore they deserve stupid entertainment. Look, we don’t have the same level of disdain for children that you do, apparently.
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“Quality was never the intention.”
Then it’s shit.
I have more respect for people who DO intend to make quality entertainment for kids. Walt Disney. Chuck Jones. John K. Bill Watterson. Bob Bell. Jim Henson. Bill Malendez. Genndy Tartakovski.
These are men I respect. These are men who never talked down to children. The are men who produce(d) entertainment for young minds without being blatantly juvenile like today’s sorry excuse for kids entertainment. See the difference?
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“You want The Sopranos of cartoon shows, go write one.”
So this is what we should tell any critic.
A. “You’re not the audience.”
B. “If you don’t like it, make your own.”
I’ll forward this to Leonard Maltin. I’m sure he’ll have a good laugh.
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“The show did suffer from serious lag in writing, yet it did achieve some success.”
You know how many people I’ve worked with who have this mentality?
“It’s not great, but it gets the job done.”
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“Notice how half of all the villains were never very serious.”
*sigh*
On this very program, we argued with a guy who tried to make it seem like Slade was a badass. We were responding to this. Maybe if you had listened to the show…
–
“They don’t appear to have any set laws of physics (other than gravity) for their universe, no law of conservation. Or any sort of rules for that matter. Maybe they deserve slack here because comics and superhero stories in general are notorious for this.”
So we should just accept any sort of stupidity at all, because superhero comics have a certain level of suspension of disbelief?
Look, not all cases like this are equal. Sometimes you’re flying across the galaxy in a matter of minutes. Sometimes you’re nuking a fridge.
Teen Titans takes place on a planet full of radioactive refrigerators.
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“Lets talk about the fact that adults are judging and hashing about a kid’s cartoon. This is sick.”
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Your righteous indignation pleases me well.
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“Teen titans was a show I watched back in the day, when I was maybe 13-14.”
When I was 14, I was watching Batman and Animaniacs. I had it so much better than you. Sorry, but the cartoons you grew up with are shit.
Hell, most of the cartoons that I grew up with are shit, but at least I have the balls to admit it instead of whining about it on someone else’s podcast.
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“and I started to get back into it recently after a serious bout of procrastination. I’ll won’t talk or acknowledge it outside of the confines of the internet nor will I crank up the volume of Gangstarr, Grandsmaster Flash, SQR1, Wu Tang and others while I’m driving in my car. They’re guilty pleasures. I know better. You don’t. You better learn.”
What?! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Where did this non sequitur come from?
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“The Terra plot, I don’t know what to say about it. Yeah it did kind of suck, but the appeal was more of the emotions it (was supposed) to wring up rather than a deep storyline with a plausible suspension of disbelief. (I’ve yet to see one in comics). What exactly makes for a good betrayal story anyway?”
*clears throat*
Well, for starters… Character development!