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Pineapple salad cannot kill Roy!
Today, we were joined by Kittyhawk and voice actor Brett Weaver to talk about the fine art of localization. We also talk about Carl Macek a bit, but not as much as we had planned. Maybe we can return to Carl at a later date.
As for today’s episode, you have 100 minutes to look forward to of us rambling about why the anime snobs of the 90s were all wrong.
Topics discussed:
Streamline Pictures
Tomato soup
Ninja consultants
Averting archaic internet memes based on bad localizations
Random falling H’s
“No” DOES mean “Yes”!
Making fun of Sandy Fox
Singing… IN JAPANESE!!!
The white Richard Roundtree
“FUCK YOU, BEN!”
Fortress Maximus meets with Ninja Consultant Six Shot to balance his budget... IN STEALTH!!!
"He's a bad mother..." "Shut your mouth!" "I'm just talkin' about Nabeshin!"
Once again, we agree that Jenny Stigile is the superior MKR singer to Sandy Fox.
Sadly, with the sound quality being so low, I really can’t ‘listen’ to it very well. Might want to look at a better microphone and do some DJ practicing. :/
What about the early Dragon Ball episodes, where they changed the mugs of beer into water. That was made fun of in the Ani-Mayhem card game with the card “Frothy Mugs of Water”.
I think this is a topic we definitely need to come back to. I keep realizing all of the funny shit that we never even addressed.
One of my favorite dubs was the first season of Those Who Hunt Elves, they really had fun with that show. “That girl is as safe as Brittany Spears Virginity.” Gawd that was the best ^^ Oh and by the way, this is for Ben http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLTlH7KB0Xk&feature=related my dirty pleasure, that intro was hype compared to the season 1 intro from funimation =P
Oh boy.
I don’t even remember if I made my point about translating the intro song, but my usual default is to leave it in Japanese (read: In JAPANESE!!!), unless it has something key to the plot in it. Kinda like how the old Slayers dubs only translated the parts spoken by Lina and then left the song alone.
If you’re defending localization, doesn’t that mean you’re defending all of it? Not just Carl Macek and Robotech, but Nelvana’s Cardcaptors, DIC’s Sailor Moon, everything by 4KIDS / NAMBLA, etc. Or movie editions (1st episode, 2nd episode, last episode, who needs the rest, right?) of anime.
Laughable means of editing death (the vaper zone, shadow realm, another dimension, etc.). Replacing names with names, or foods with foods. With dub voice acting so bad (see Star Vengers), it makes abridged voice acting sound good… You’re going to defend all of that?
You know, even if you could, it wouldn’t justify putting Macross in licensing hell for its 30th anniversary! So what’s wrong with wanting an official license from Big West, supporting their work, with their permission? That’s why you don’t see anything else Macross renamed Robotech… Because Harmony Gold can’t! But because they can’t, they don’t want anyone else to either.
All hail lord Shoji Kawamori! Long live Macross! Death to Harmony Gold! Robotech fans should kill themselves for the love of lord Shoji Kawamori!
“If you’re defending localization, doesn’t that mean you’re defending all of it?”
Uh…NO. Why would we do THAT? Only a Sith believes in absolutes. From what I’ve heard of Carl Macek in interviews, he HATED most of the stuff that you just mentioned. Although, sometimes you HAVE to change the names, because sometimes you have shows like Gunsmith Cats where being literal to the original intention is asinine. Rally Vincent’s original Japanese name was LARRY. Still think literalism is ALWAYS good? I hope not.
I’m actually not happy about this episode, because we barely talked about Carl. His time at Harmony Gold is relatively small compared to his later involvement in anime, most notably with Streamline Pictures. Streamline was great, but it gets a bad rap from elitist snobs.
No, Ben and I don’t really like shows like Sailor Moon and Card Captors, which were butchered in their American adaptations, even if they were done to get them on TV. Sailor Moon was butchered in ways that were completely unnecessary, such as completely hiding the fact that the show takes place in Japan, and Card Captors was even worse. compared to these, Robotech’s portrayal of Macross was astonishingly faithful in spite of trying to rip off Dune. And then you have Funimation’s Dragonball Z, which even though it gets butchered for TV, Funimation at least produces a more faithful localization for their DVDs. Even if we don’t like it, we have to understand that sometimes TV edits are a necessary evil, though we still reserve the right to complain when they’re done particularly poorly.
I’m not even going to absolutely defend Carl in every aspect, because there were times that I thought he was wrong. For example, while at Streamline, he went out of his way to avoid showing katakana in the opening credits of his shows. The opening credits to the Lupin movies were notoriously hacked, because he believed in neutral openings that didn’t market the movies as “foreign films”. In spite of this, the ad roll at the beginning of most Streamline VHS cassettes advertised it as “state of the art Japanese animation”. *shrug*
Although, there are other examples where Carl gets slammed for things that anime snobs don’t understand. There were shows like Aura Battler Dunbine, where he changed terminology in the show, because the Japanese terminology was based in European names. Carl made changes in instances where using Japanese names was simply asinine.
Carl Macek worked at ADV for a short time, and he was highly critical of the way that company was run. He would have been on your side about the quality of dubs, because they put out crap like Lady Death and the new AD Police. You should seek out his interview on the Anime News Network and listen to him tell horror stories about how that company was run. It’s hilarious.
To be perfectly honest with you, I think the nonsense with Harmony Gold is ridiculous, every bit as much as you do. Robotech was a show that was designed for a syndication system that doesn’t even exist anymore, but Harmony Gold won’t let it die, because it’s the only thing they have. I’m well aware that they have all the rights to Macross tied up, in spite of the fact that they can never use it. They can’t even do anything with the stuff from Southern Cross. All they can do is make sequels to Mospeada. Oh wait, they can’t even do THAT now, because of the live action deal they have tied up with Warner Brothers that’s never going to get off the ground.
I have a homework assignment for you. Find the Talkshoe podcast Space Station Liberty and listen to their Kevin McKeever interview as he talks about the Robotech live action movie that’s never going to happen. McKeever’s a slimy marketing director who works at Harmony Gold, and what you have here is approximately three-and-a-half hours of a man who can’t give a straight fucking answer to save his life. Be prepared to start drinking, because about the tenth time he says, “Harmony Gold has all the rights to Robotech,” you’ll want to be anything but sober. It’s quite possibly the most irritating thing I’ve ever listened to.
The moral to this is: Don’t expect us to defend Harmony Gold.
By “faithful”, you mean Codename: Robotech faithful *vomits* or do you mean Robothech: The Untold Story faithful? *vomits again* Or maybe faithful like the original dub by Harmony Gold… “Soldier of warlords from deep space, MACROSS! Hurled through the night to this new place. MACROSS!” Okay, let me tell you what’s wrong with this… A no talent hack, is singing the plot of the show, that he can’t even pronounce right. “Mac-cross”? They shouldn’t have the rights to localize a show if they can’t even pronounce it’s name right!
Anyways, you can’t say Robotech was faithful to Macross, but at the same time say: before and after the 36 episodes of “The Macross Saga”, Robotech isn’t Macross. It has to be one or the other, it can’t be both. Besides, as long as they get more (made by anyone), I don’t think Robotech fans care if it’s faithful to Macross or not. So being faithful to a show has nothing to do with it… Time and your childhood memories does.
Okay, let’s play: what if? What if Robotech wasn’t made in the 80’s but made today? With no one with childhood memories of it, and with only Macross fans (and the internet) knowing what they did, any rewrite or edits they made would be wrong. It would be like Dic’s Nights Of The Zodiac again… Well okay, what if Nights of the Zodiac where released back in the 1980’s? Not many would had known of Saint Seiya (or had internet access to find out) back then, and would had been judged it on it’s own merits.
Is that good or bad… I don’t know? But what makes one show popular like Samurai Pizza Cats (that’s not faithful to Kyatto Ninden Teyandee at all), makes others like Crayon Shin-chan evil and wrong (not mine, others opinion). I mean, do you think people who say they won’t buy the Persona 4: The Animation Blu Ray because it’s dubbed only care about how faithful the dub is? No, they won’t give the dub a chance, because it’s not in Japanese. How times have changed. huh? (Hey grandpa, tell me what VHS is?)
No, what I think is more “asinine” is referring to them as “the Japanese” instead of by name. Do you do that to everyone (those blacks, them women, etc.), or are Japanese people the exception? So if you have a problem with Kenichi Sonoda naming a girl “Larry” in his manga Gunsmith Cats, take it up with him… But know that your opinion doesn’t override his opinion. In fact, if you think you can do better than him, make your own manga!
Anyways, since you’re a member of the name police, why don’t you go to the Kojima production site and tell them you have a problem with naming a girl “Ken” (Ken Marinaris from Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner), and tell them how being faithful to their work is “asinine” because they’re Japanese, then tell me how far that got you?
You might think highly of Streamline/ Orion, I don’t (Deanny: I arrange a $100 company in your name. Joel: You mean Orion? -MST3K Mitchell). Most companies back then (Dic, Saban, 4kids, etc.) got rights to Japanese anime, not to promote anime, but because it was cheap animation they could make a profit from. So alot of people might be anime fans today, because of edited shows like Sailor Moon… But that doesn’t mean one person or one show made us all anime fans. Besides, the best selling anime today is about merchandising. So if it weren’t for Streamline, we wouldn’t have Pokemon?
Of course we would. In fact Dragonball is a license rescue from Harmony Gold/ Streamline (don’t tell me… You think “Zero” is a better name than “Goku”). So if it weren’t for Funimation, Dragonball would still be out of print (and that means no DBZ either). And they don’t sell anime for integrity, but for money (it’s makes the world go around)!
“Anyways, you can’t say Robotech was faithful to Macross, but at the same time say: before and after the 36 episodes of ‘The Macross Saga’, Robotech isn’t Macross. It has to be one or the other, it can’t be both.”
No. By “faithful”, we’re not saying that Robotech is 1-to-1 with Macross. What we’re saying is that as far as the story goes, it’s a pretty straight-forward localization, with some rather minor alterations, most notably the addition of protoculture. Yes, it was adapted into the larger Robotech saga, but Macross is much less altered than, say, Southern Cross, in which the entire purpose of the story is jettisoned. Even Mosaeda was heavily altered, with the ending being virtually whitewashed. But all things considered, Macross fared the best of the three. That’s what we mean.
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“Okay, let’s play: what if? What if Robotech wasn’t made in the 80′s but made today? With no one with childhood memories of it, and with only Macross fans (and the internet) knowing what they did, any rewrite or edits they made would be wrong.”
Or it could be like Dual Masters, where I’m completely fine with the changes that were made. I’m not an absolutist, my friend. I can see cases where doing non-traditional localizations can be both a good or bad thing. It depends on what the show is. And sometimes I think different degrees of faithfulness is appropriate, especially in cases where Japanese culturalism isn’t important to telling the story.
The argument is about what is the best way to present the product to an American audience. That’s what localization is about.
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“I mean, do you think people who say they won’t buy the Persona 4: The Animation Blu Ray because it’s dubbed only care about how faithful the dub is? No, they won’t give the dub a chance, because it’s not in Japanese. How times have changed. huh?”
Who cares? They’re the minority. The purpose of localization is to bring these products to a MASS market. You apparently didn’t get that from the show. And because people think like you, the anime market is a shell of what it once was. Being hyper-literal to Japanese culturalisms alienates viewers.
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“No, what I think is more ‘asinine’ is referring to them as “the Japanese” instead of by name.”
By “the Japanese”, we’re referring to people of a geographical location and nationality, where in there are local customs different than our own. I use “the Japanese” in the same context I would “the Americans” or “The Canadians.”
What I think is asinine is people who can’t make an argument without trying to race-bait me.
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“So if you have a problem with Kenichi Sonoda naming a girl “Larry” in his manga Gunsmith Cats, take it up with him… But know that your opinion doesn’t override his opinion. In fact, if you think you can do better than him, make your own manga!”
What the fuck are you talking about?
This is an episode about localization. Yes, retaining the name “Larry” would have been stupid. What part of this don’t you understand? This isn’t about telling Sonoda whether his name choices were right or wrong. This is about how to adapt his stuff to American tastes. Being literal would have been stupid.
Sometimes, you have to consider the context of the property. For example, in Final Fantasy VI, the character Terra was originally named Tina. The name Tina is an exotic name in Japan, but in America, it’s common. So to retain the intent of the author, the name was changed to Terra.
It also goes the other way, too. The character Lara Croft is named Lana in Japan, because it’s easier for them to say Lana.
The Japanese (there’s that word again) do that to our stuff all the time. It’s normal. It’s only the anime snobs who don’t think so.
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“(Hey grandpa, tell me what VHS is?)”
Since you’re being an absolute ass, I’d like to point out that the above sentence is not a question, and therefore the question mark is not the appropriate form of punctuation. Call it a pet peeve of mine, but this is a fairly common mistake I see on the internet, usually made by ignorant, self-righteous, prepubescent children, such as yourself. (Hey, if you can be agist, then so can I.)
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“Anyways, since you’re a member of the name police…”
We’re not name police. We’re just commenting on people who don’t understand localization. I take it you’re one of them.
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“You might think highly of Streamline/ Orion…”
Straw man. No, Orion ruined Streamline. Streamline Pictures was acquired by Orion after Orion lost its entire movie catalogue. Streamline was a quick and easy way to have things they could market on VHS. Look it up.
Before Orion acquired them, Streamline outsold everyone, including ADV and Central Park Media.
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“So alot of people might be anime fans today, because of edited shows like Sailor Moon… But that doesn’t mean one person or one show made us all anime fans.”
Also a straw man. I don’t believe that I said this at any point. In fact, I often correct people when they use the argument that is, “If it wasn’t X, we wouldn’t have Y.” With technology bringing the world together, it would have happened eventually.
My argument is that Streamline did it BETTER than anyone else ever did, so much so that there is still a demand for the original dubs.
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“Besides, the best selling anime today is about merchandising. So if it weren’t for Streamline, we wouldn’t have Pokemon?”
And that goes to show how much of a niche market it is, that the only thing that sells anymore is stuff tied to a toy or video game. That’s pretty pathetic.
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“Of course we would. In fact Dragonball is a license rescue from Harmony Gold/ Streamline…”
Harmony Gold is not Streamline. We’re talking about the work of Carl Macek here. Carl Macek had left Harmony Gold to work at DiC, then Spumco, and then finally on to Streamline. He wasn’t even the head of Harmony Gold. He was hired on to adapt shows for US TV. That’s all he did there. But the stuff he made there endures, so much so that the highest selling DVDs at ADV was the remastered Robotech stuff. It even outsold Eva.
I don’t particuarly like Harmony Gold, but the topic of the show wasn’t about them, anyway.
Thank you for making my morning. It’s not every day I get to make a complete ass out of some twerp who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.